Reimagining Government S4E3: How the City of Oslo plans to cut emissions by 95% with Heidi Sørensen

Heidi Sørensen: [00:00:00] I think too often the climate debate is about sacrifice. And, actually it’s not. It’s about building better lives for everyone. You can’t mobilise people on a kind of a dark dream. You have to mobilise people on building something better.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Welcome back to Reimagining Government, the podcast from the Centre for Public Impact.

Gabrielle Beran: We are your hosts, Gabrielle Beran.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: And Kandice Louis-Wilson. And this season we’re asking a bold question. What if tackling climate change starts with rethinking who holds power?

Eleni Myrivili: Heat has this amazing capacity, like a ghost, to go into houses, to go into working places, to go into cities and find the people that are the most vulnerable. 

Gabrielle Beran: We’ve heard from our [00:01:00] previous guest, Eleni Myrivili, about the particular danger extreme heat poses in cities. Urban areas heat up much more quickly than rural ones, and are difficult to cool down.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Cities also account for over 75% of global greenhouse emissions, making the shift to sustainable energy in these places critical for achieving climate goals. That’s why they’re at the forefront of climate action. 

Yet many cities are not on track to achieve their climate goals. This is why CPI’s Climate Action Team is focused on urban transformations, supporting cities to implement their climate action plans, change systems, and reimagine a climate-secure future.

Despite these challenges, there’s one place leading the way. 

External Clip: Oslo, Norway. Every year, the capital city calculates how much emission-producing activity will contribute to greenhouse gases and then implements a carbon budget to keep those levels low. 

Gabrielle Beran: Oslo, Norway, is fast becoming a symbol of climate resilience and showcases the [00:02:00] potential of zero-carbon cities.

It set itself the goal of reducing carbon emissions by 95% by 2030 compared to 2009 levels. With an ambitious climate strategy, a revolutionary budget, and enjoying widespread public buy-in, what lessons can we learn from climate action at the municipal level in Oslo? And where does gender come into it all?

Kandice Louis-Wilson: For this conversation, we were privileged to be joined by Heidi Sørensen. Heidi is a Norwegian politician, a member of the Socialist Left Party. She became State Secretary to the Minister of the Environment between 2007 and 2012. Since 2017, she has been Director of the Climate Agency in the municipality of Oslo.

Gabrielle Beran: As you’ll learn in this episode, climate action doesn’t have to be about sacrifices. It’s about the opportunities that a climate resilient city can bring to its residents. From quieter construction sites, clean air for children to breathe, and even bringing people back to the local rivers and fjords within the city.[00:03:00] 

We speak to Heidi after this short break.

Advert: Hi, I’m Anne-Sophie Garrigou. I work for european climate innovation agency and community, Climate-KIC, and I host their podcast, ‘How Could We’. So-called because we ask, how could we have let the climate crisis happen, and how could we fix it? On the podcast, I interview researchers, innovators, thought leaders, and implementers.

And together we imagine viable futures and talk about how can we build climate resilient societies and fight climate breakdown. Each podcast season has a different theme, and we’ve covered a range of topics so far, including city transformation, climate adaptation, sustainable forestry, leadership, etcetera.

We’ve just launched our latest season, and it focuses on the upcoming COP 30 Conference in Belem, Brazil. Recorded live at the SB62 June climate meeting in Bonn. I interviewed negotiators, scientists, [00:04:00] civil society actors who are at the heart of these negotiations. They come from Brazil, Chile, Sudan, India, Europe, and each of them bring a unique perspective on what we can expect from Brazil’s presidency and the challenges that lie ahead.

So to listen, search for ‘How Could We’ on the podcast platform of your choice. We hope you’ll join us on the road to build a climate-resilient future together.

Gabrielle Beran: Welcome back to Reimagining Government. Welcome to the podcast Heidi. Can you tell our listeners where you are calling in from today and introduce yourself, and tell us a bit about your role? 

Heidi Sørensen: Yes, I’m calling in from Oslo, the capital of Norway. I’m currently working and I’ve been so for the last nine years, as head of the Climate Agency in the city of Oslo.

Before that, I have been worked in politics. I’ve been Vice Minister of Environment, I’ve been a Member of Parliament, and I headed [00:05:00] some of the Norwegian NGOs and environment. So basically I’ve done nothing else but climate and environment my whole life. But that has been fun. 

Gabrielle Beran: What got you started in this environmental space?

Heidi Sørensen: I’ve always been there, I guess. Uh, I’ve been more or less born into it. I think I was five years old back in 1975, where I attended a meeting with my grandfather who was opposing building of a factory in a wonderful natural space where we used to pick flowers in the spring. I have it from there, and I started working in nature and youth when I was 16 and just kept on.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: A part of your story is that you’ve been in Oslo City government for the last nine years, which is amazing. Can you tell us about, uh, the climate plan and if, if you were a part of that process as well? 

Heidi Sørensen: Yes. I think that the story about the climate strategy and the climate budget in Oslo is interesting, and I think there’s a couple of things to learn from.

External Clip: To make the City of the Future Scheme work needs more than just political will. Everyone has to be involved, [00:06:00] and this appears to be happening. 

Heidi Sørensen: Back in 2016, the city council set very ambitious targets that we were going to reduce the climate emissions by 95% until 2030. Basically, getting rid of everything.

External Clip: Oslo is already one of the greenest cities in the world, and this plan is designed to enhance that. 

Heidi Sørensen: After they’d done that, I was, uh, appointed Head of the Climate Agency, which was created at that moment. What we have done is to try to mainstream climate and be very pragmatic and very focused on how to actually get down emissions.

And I think the breakthrough was when we introduced the climate budget, which put climate issue in the very centre of policy-making. 

External Clip: It’s good for people, it’s good for the local environment, and it’s actually also good for business in the city centre. 

Heidi Sørensen: Every year the city council has to adopt the climate budget and, [00:07:00] uh, say yes or no to measures, and they will then see where we will be in 2030.

It’s very transparent. It’s only for brave politicians because it shows very well when you’re not succeeding. But, um, it has been a very useful tool. We didn’t reinvent much, we didn’t change many structures, but we used the existing structures and put climate in the very centre of policy-making. 

At the same time, this climate agency, we were given, uh, a little bit of carrot and a little bit of stick. The carrot was that if you had something, you would get climate measures that were very important. You will get prioritising when it’s come to the financial budget as well. And uh, the stick was that if you didn’t do your part, it’ll show very well in the budget document that you were lagging behind.

External Clip: By having a climate budget integrated into the city fiscal budget, we [00:08:00] can plan better. 

Heidi Sørensen: In the beginning, it was difficult, of course, because, uh, the city of Oslo is not a very big city in international standards, but still, there are more than 700,000 people living here. And the city of Oslo, our municipality, has more than 50 agencies that is a part of the climate budget. And to get everyone on board, of course, has been a big job. But, uh, it has, has kind of a pragmatic, systematic approach. And, uh, we have just finished our 10th climate budget, so we are very happy with that.

Gabrielle Beran: You spoke there about collaborating across different departments. What has that experience been like? Where has it been difficult and where has it felt easy? 

Heidi Sørensen: In the beginning, I think they were used to a lot of action plans. And that was my [00:09:00] experience as well as a Vice Minister of Environment or as a Member of Parliament, I had been throwing a lot of action plans out on climate and environment.

But then the climate budget was different because when we launched the climate budget, every entity who had a measure in the climate budget had to report three times a year. And that means that, uh, if things were not working, we would start to know almost right away. 

And, perhaps we should adjust the measure. Perhaps there was something lacking, perhaps we should do something else or different. I think for the first two or three years, many of the entities were said, okay, we have something in the budget. Uh, we are working on it, but basically telling us that they thought this climate thing that will go away, but it didn’t.

It has become easier for every year. Because it’s there to stay and uh, I think that is very important. This is relatable. It’ll come years after years. If you don’t do anything, [00:10:00] you have to do the same thing all over next year. I think that’s the beauty of it. We have goals that has been short enough, ambitious enough to put everyone on board.

And at the same time, uh, measured and been, we are calculating and you can see what’s happening at the moment with all the measures we have adopted so far. If we do nothing else in the next four years, we will end at a reduction of 70% by 2030. The goal is 95, so we are still not there. But we have, uh, identified measures that will bring us to 80. So we still have some work to do, but, uh, but we are getting there, step by step. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: The budget in Oslo has become a staple and a, a target for many different countries around the world. Can you tell us more about this budget and how it works? 

Heidi Sørensen: The simplest version, I think, is the most true one. The climate budget contains [00:11:00] measures, telling you what to do, who will do it, when it’ll be done, and when relevant, at what cost? All those measures are adding up together with a potential reduction of climate gas emissions. 

It is quite easy, but at the same time, when you are going to have 50 entities playing together with all those measures. Some of the measures, you need four different entities to work together.

Some of the measures you will need only two. The unlucky one, only one. But climate is often cross-structural, so you need often people to work together. But outlining this every year in the formal budget that the city government put forward to the city council. So they have to adopt the measures. Every year, is very good.

It’s always good to see this is a part of the climate budget here. It is your responsibility. You are part of it. So I think the system has made [00:12:00] us able to work cross-sectoral. And that’s, uh, needed when it’s come to climate issues. 

External Clip: Cities are key to change. What we do in Oslo can be done in other cities all over the world, and cities together to help save the climate.

Heidi Sørensen: There has been a lot of nudging. There has been a lot of working together trying to find solutions and a little bit of stick. But mostly it has been a building good relations, uh, with the other entities and people inside there. Because it’s, in the end of the day, everything goes back to finding people who are actually willing to do the job. But to have a relatively small agency as the climate agency, with this responsibility working close together with other entities has been, uh, I think an effective way of doing it.

Because if we don’t have this agency, all the other entities had to build climate competence themselves, [00:13:00] which is often quite expensive to do. We have been working with other entities when they are doing their strategical work on climate, and then we often help. That has been very effective. So, be allowed to be a little bit of nagging, but also do a lot of nudging, and to find the balance between that, I think has been the key to success. 

Gabrielle Beran: I like that a lot. It’s not nagging. It is nudging. I think I’m going to bring this into my personal life, Heidi. 

Heidi Sørensen: Do that.

Gabrielle Beran: Heidi says it’s not nagging, it’s nudging. Okay. I like this idea of this role as the climate agency, as kind of the convener. The group of people who hold everybody on, on the path.

Heidi Sørensen: Just, just let me add one thing that, because we have been that. And I have been discussing this with some of the Norwegian researchers, often saying that other places where you have this kind of role as a convener, [00:14:00] they’re often become outside the system. But because of that is our role to put together the climate budget, we are not outside, we are inside. So those two roles combined I think is very, very important. 

Gabrielle Beran: That’s a huge leadership responsibility. And I wonder if you could talk about your own approach to leadership and maybe make some more general comments about what sort of leadership is needed to accelerate climate action in this brave way that you have done. 

Heidi Sørensen: What I believe in is, um, let people take responsibility and enable them to take responsibility. And uh, for me it has all been all about, uh, building a small unit and then at the same time communicate very clearly what is the goals. But then again, let people find out how to reach those goals. 

I think it’s been very important that we are not kind of hang up in one solution. There could be more [00:15:00] solutions, but my role is to let people work to find the best solutions. I don’t know them from the beginning. It’s taken. Take a very important example. We are now investing in a carbon capture and storage facility at the incineration plant in Oslo. 

External Clip: It might sound crazy, but burning household and industrial waste could help save the planet. Norwegian firm Acre Solutions has set up this large incinerator plant to capture carbon from burning items that can’t be recycled. 

Heidi Sørensen: We have, um, communicated and been in discussion with those in ownership of the facility for many years. But, uh, the solution didn’t come from us because we didn’t have the competence of, uh, public ownership, uh, and private enterprise cooperation.

That was Department of Business in Oslo. So they found the solution. But after they have been part of the [00:16:00] climate budget for four or five years, and after we are communicate a lot of discussion about the meaningfulness of this. Why we are going to do it. And we had of course offered every expertise on some of the technical things, some of the things that shouldn’t avoid, but mostly this.

A reason why we got there was because of their, their competence. I thought that was so beautiful to see a type of competence that, uh, you will never think of hiring if you were in climate agency, but who was extremely important to find, actually get on board there. So enabling others to be a part of the solution and do this cross-sectoral has been very important.

Gabrielle Beran: I think that point about making sure there is space for everyone to contribute their expertise and their ideas is so important, and it goes to this broader question of how inclusive we are when we are developing our responses to climate. 

Heidi Sørensen: Mm-hmm. 

Gabrielle Beran: [00:17:00] This podcast that we are doing has this focus on inclusion, particularly inclusion of all genders, to work towards climate solutions.

And, you know, we know that climate change impacts women and girls to a much greater extent than men. Now, this may not be as true in Norway as in other parts of the world. Is there a way that your climate strategy and your climate budget have deliberately responded to these power imbalances? These questions of who is included, who is excluded, who is affected?

Heidi Sørensen: Yeah. When we introduce measure into the climate budget, we do, um, evaluation of, of equity. Uh, we are very into thinking of just transitions. So every measure is, uh, seen that way. Who will they affect, and is there anything that we should really bear in mind or change, because we want that transition to be as just as possible. 

There is also a, another thing that I think is important that we see [00:18:00] very clearly. We do a climate survey every year, so we have a lot of numbers, uh, behind who supports what, when it comes to climate issues and when it comes to measures. And there is, uh, no secret that we see big differences between what kind of climate measure that, uh, is supported by women and what kind of climate measures is supported by men.

And we also see a, a difference in, there are almost no women in our material that’s, that says that they really don’t think climate is important. But there are quite a lot of men, that will say that. We have, uh, shown that more than two thirds of the population in the city of Oslo, thinks that the climate measures will help doing the city a better city.

And uh, having a development that relies on increased climate emissions will not lead you to a better city, but reducing the climate emissions will. And I think when more than [00:19:00] two-thirds of the population understands that, I think we have a good communication ground. But there’s no doubt that women understand more of this than the average man. 

We see the same differences on a national level as well. And I think you have seen some European surveys as well that, uh, European women are more engaged in issues like climate change. But it’s, it’s interesting and it’s sometimes, I think it’s unexplainable. Some of it is explainable, but, um, at least very interesting to see.

Gabrielle Beran: What do you think it is that the women of Oslo are seeing that men are not? 

Heidi Sørensen: It goes into women being more on the safe side when it comes to values. And climate, in the end of the day is, uh, if you don’t have a good climate policy, if you don’t plan how to reduce your climate emissions, it’s not safe. So, it’s about safety.

I think it’s the same kind of split you will see between men and women when it’s come to [00:20:00] safety versus competition of, of at least freedom. Uh, I think it’s also is, um, a good thing that the majority is so clear that this measure, uh, will make our city into a better city. 

I think too often the climate debate is about sacrifice. And actually, it’s not. It’s about building better lives for everyone. It’s only when you adjust climate change in a severe way, that you’re able to create better lives for everyone. 

Gabrielle Beran: That’s exactly how I feel, Heidi. So I came into climate through gender equity and social inclusion and, and to me, it seems obvious you want to create a better life for everyone. Then we create a, an environment and, and a society where we have fresh air, clean water, relationship to nature. 

Heidi Sørensen: Yeah. 

Gabrielle Beran: Time, space where the care economy is, you know, respected. All of, all of these things. So this is, uh, yeah, really lovely to hear you say it that way. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: [00:21:00] Systems change is often like kind of driven by like the negative, right? Like that, that pessimistic side. Do you have any advice for those who like work with risk-averse government figures and policy makers in order to make these decisions less daunting? 

Heidi Sørensen: Of course, people will respond to risk. But that’s often when you’re going to avoid something. If you’re going to create something, change is happening through positive thinking of what you actually want to achieve in the future.

You can’t mobilise people on a kind of a dark gene. You have to mobilise people on building something better. And I think that’s often forgotten when it’s come to climate. That we are so interested in avoiding the negative future that we forget to tell the stories about the future that we are actually building.

And that has been core of the communication strategy in Oslo. First point is we are building a better city for all. And people have experienced that. They know can, uh, bring their kids [00:22:00] to the streets of Oslo and play. Air pollution is down tremendously. And, uh, at the same time, the fjord has been become better, so you can bathe in the fjord. 

External Clip: Now you can just swim in the middle of Oslo, and that is amazing. It’s important for me to live in a city that prioritises climate because now I can have a bit of nature in the city. I can go out, feel free. 

Heidi Sørensen: It has become a more human-oriented city and people love it. It’s more trees there, it’s flowers there, that is building a positive picture of the future without climate gas emissions. And I think that’s so important.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: And what I hear is a mindset shift. Right. How did you as a leadership create strategy to do a mindset shift as big as that, in a city such as Oslo?

Heidi Sørensen: We had quite a comprehensive communication strategy, still have. And uh, what I have learned after a long life in politics is that telling people [00:23:00] is not the most effective way to shift opinions.

So we started collecting stories on how people organise the new life. We start telling about why we were planting flowers in the street because we need to, uh, drain water from, uh, big Rainfalls. We started showing, not telling, on a very big scale. And, uh, I think, uh word started spreading when it’s come to conversation around kitchen tables or in, at schools or wherever, people talking together. There was a lot of people retelling the stories. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Something that made my ears perk up that you said while you were talking about the power of storytelling. Uh, and I think that’s such an influential tool. And when you’re thinking about systems change, um, how has your communication strategy not only changed, like mindset shifts of people.

But also like how have you used that or have you been able to use that to also [00:24:00] infiltrate like the change of policy and practice in other places? 

Heidi Sørensen: It has been very important. For instance, one of the things that we have invented is the zero-emission construction sites. Imagine communicating around construction sites, whether you should have electrical motors on the escalators or a diesel motor on the escalators.

It might perhaps not be the most easy selling, but uh, we found that this zero-emission construction sites was brilliant for storytelling. 

External Clip: I am at a building site in Oslo, but there are no smelly diesel fumes here, and it’s virtually silent. It’s a zero-emissions construction site. 

Heidi Sørensen: We had one of them between two kindergartens, and because of the electrical escalators being so silent, the kindergarten can let their children sleep outside.

External Clip: We have like two kindergartens next to the construction site, and there’s been zero complaints about noise from the two [00:25:00] kindergartens that’s here, and that’s 200 children that goes there every day. 

Heidi Sørensen: When you’re building something in a city, it’s always difficult because nobody likes to live next to a construction site.

But then if you can do that without emissions, so the air is clean and also we are very much more silent machines, it becomes a lot easier. So now this, uh, we are working on an international level. I think New York has these first zero construction sites. London has definitely zero zero-emissions construction sites.

So I think for us living in Oslo, it’s so easy to see the zero-emission construction site has made the city better because we are constantly building something. 

Gabrielle Beran: I really like that story, and I imagine there are a lot of different people you had to bring along on that journey. I like to swim, so I love the, I want to hear more about swimming in the fjords.

Heidi Sørensen: Yeah. 

Gabrielle Beran: Can you tell us a bit more like, who are all the different people and stakeholders you had to get in place to [00:26:00] start to clean that out. Or, if it’s too traumatic, it’s okay. 

Heidi Sørensen: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. 

Gabrielle Beran: Something else.

Heidi Sørensen: It, it, it was, uh, it has been a work going on for more than 30 years, but, uh, uh, there’s also been big involvement from the state. But, as in many other places, there were shipyards in Oslo in the sixties, and seventies and eighties, and they never shut down.

There was a lot of heavy metal, metal and chemicals in the inner city basin. So the city and the government, in around 2000, yeah, 2000, uh, had a big cooperation to actually clean up the seabed of the inner rostefield from, uh, heavy metals and dangerous, uh, chemicals. And that was done. Then, uh, they measured the, the water quality to be good enough for bathing.

I remember I was in nature and used back in the 1990s, and we were saying that [00:27:00] the, the water of Oslo should be so nice that we could bathe there. And people say, ha ha ha. It’s totally impossible. But no, we have a lot of places to bathe. And it’s so popular and people really love it. And we have saunas near the water.

So you can take saunas and jump into the water through the whole winter. We really love it. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: I’m quite envious of that. I live right outside of Washington, DC, and, uh, you wouldn’t go to the Potomac with a 10-foot pole. Uh, so, uh, it’s nice to hear that people are able to like, enjoy uh, coming from deep south, uh, of the United States.

Heidi Sørensen: Yeah. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: I grew up enjoying being able to swim in rivers and lakes and, uh. But you know, living in a large city in the United States, it’s just not something that we can do. So I, I appreciate that story and I, it brings joy to young Kandice to hear that that’s something, uh, people can enjoy in Norway. 

Heidi Sørensen: You are so welcome to come and try our saunas.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Oh, don’t tempt me. What a good time. I would love to do that. [00:28:00] 

Gabrielle Beran: Projects like transforming the, the quality of, of swimming water, and they’re a long-term, multi-year project. And something we are certainly seeing at times in the UK and in other parts of Europe is the short-term political cycle. Can be very challenging for any long-term endeavours, particularly climate endeavours.

Do you have any thoughts about how you can navigate the challenge of these short-term cycles, when we have this long-term vision? 

Heidi Sørensen: I think it’s an important question because you, our period for, uh, political leadership will always be four years and I think you in, in Britain has up to five. And it’s too short of a time to make those kind of change really happening.

So I think one of the success, uh, that we have made in Oslo that I think it’s can’t be underestimated is that the politician has crossed the aisle. So, we have a majority in our city council for around [00:29:00] 85% backing the climate strategy and backing in the climate budget. So, regardless of what happens in elections, the climate policy will be in place. 

We had a, a shift in government two years ago, and there has not been any major shift that has influenced our work on the climate budget or in the climate strategy, and that is extremely important. Because both the two big parties are on board saying that this is a job we have to do.

I think it’s so sad seeing that climate become more and more polarised. And we do a lot of work to keep climate out of the cultural war because it has no place there. Addressing climate is for the common good. It will definitely be good for everyone. I think it’s extremely important to try to keep it there.

One of the things that I really love is the work that we are now having, the first zero [00:30:00] emission heavy vehicles coming on board. Seeing those who have been driving heavy vehicles around the, the Nordic countries for, uh, 10 or 15 years, falling in love in that with a new electrical, big, big, big vehicle.It’s wonderful. 

Their voice will convince others much more easily than mine. Last week we have have a guy who had invested in the two first tractors that are electrical. He was brilliant in telling the story about how this tractor made his, uh, working day easier and better. And the same goes when all the taxis became electric.

I was, uh, kind of driving incognito in an electrical, uh, taxi. With a young, uh, driver, just convincing me how good this car was. Saying like, you know, when you drive this car, the, the old car, the old [00:31:00] diesel car, you, you sat like a humping area because you have this vibration from the motor. Now, it’s totally silent. Perhaps you don’t notice, but we use it there all day. We notice very well, this is so good. 

That kind of stories. And I think nobody can, says that they were kind of leftist or couldn’t put him in any kind of cultural war. So I think it has this broad majority behind this sensible change. But, um, it’s not easy. It’s difficult. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: And I think the positive examples like that, they’re so inspirational. And as the American in the group, uh, I, I.

Heidi Sørensen:  Sorry.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: I can, I can speak to how also defeating it can be when you’re, when your government does not necessarily, necessarily operate in a, across the line, a system currently right now.

And so, while feeling defeated, I’m also inspired. And so I would love to know like what lessons could, uh, be applied to cities and state governments across, regardless of their situation. So what other [00:32:00] lessons could we learn from how you all are doing it, uh, when things are not as smooth and not as sweet? You know? 

Heidi Sørensen: First, is that make climate work about making your city better. That’s the first thing. And then give yourself an ambitious target. So you are sure that everyone has to get on board. And third, you need a comprehensive governance system, like a climate budget. And fourth, don’t ever underestimate how much you can bring from procurement.

You haven’t talked about procurement, but procurement is a wonderful too if you are a city government and actually want to change something, because it’s basically putting your money where your mouth are. And I think we have not done the change with the zero emissions construction site. I perhaps failed to say that.

Uh, from the 1st of January, every construction site done by the city of Oslo, uh, is to be zero-emission. Last year it was 85%. So [00:33:00] this is a change that happened very fast, but never, ever underestimate procurement. When you are talking about how to make change. If you are able to incentivise the technology development, technology will come and help you a lot on the way. But you need to incentivise this, so you help them through the first kind of difficult things. 

When it comes to zero-emission construction sites, we had a pilot. The first zero-emission construction site was in 2019. The same year, we had a dialogue with market and worked together with the other entities in Oslo. The city of Oslo, who worked with those who were responsible for the procurement policies. 

And we set up a system where we had tender criteria. So when the companies were who want to build for the city of Oslo, they were competing on who were able to deliver zero-emission machinery. At [00:34:00] the same time, we set this goal that by 2025, everything should be zero-emission. And we did them more or less the same on transportation. So those two changes has been some of the fastest changes I have ever seen working with environment for a lot of years.

So never underestimate procurement. We have all the technology actually we need to solve climate change, but procurement is a way of introducing technology, and it doesn’t help if we are not using a technology. Helping new technologies to enter the market, I think, uh, cities can play a key role. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: And, and I love, it’s kind of like, get on the bus or get off. You know? It’s like, yeah, you’re gonna do it or, or you’re not. 

This is our last question. We ask all of our guests to share our key learning with people working at all levels of government to help them pave a better future in climate and gender. We want you to speak directly to the government figures and public workers listening to this podcast right now. So what is your final message for them? [00:35:00] 

Heidi Sørensen: Be part of the positive story. Tell them that you’re building a better society for all, because that is what climate work is really about. And it has helped to set ambitious targets. That has been extremely important for getting everyone on board. It has also been extremely important to have in place a governance system that actually makes, uh, things happening. 

Because it’s too easy to have action plans that are not being followed up thoroughly. So, uh, a comprehensive governance system as the climate budget is key to change. And then use your muscles when it comes to procurement, to have green solutions that help new technologies enter the market.

So, all in all, stay on the positive side, use these positive examples and, uh, create change because that is also [00:36:00] creating a better life for everyone. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Um, I’ve truly appreciated this conversation. I think something that I has just really resonated with me is the simplicity of it. Um, Gabrielle is our climate expert. To be completely honest, I’ve learned so much in this podcast. Uh, and so I would say. I felt like I learned so much here, but I felt like I followed it so well. I felt like, uh, me as a person who’s not really into the climate space and, and, you know, knowing all of these terms and technologies, I was able to really like, understand everything that you’re saying and make sense of it.

So I appreciate the simplicity of the plan that you all are using, because I feel like it speaks to the commoner, it speaks to the person who’s not necessarily deeply acclimated in climate work. Uh, I’m a, an everyday person. I got excited about swimming and no, no zone, no, no noise construction sites, which, you know, those are the things that like spoke to me.

So I really, I really appreciate just everything that I’ve learned and everything that you all have said and everything that you’re doing. Thank you for, um, joining us today on the podcast. 

Heidi Sørensen: Thank you. [00:37:00] Good to hear. No acronyms, no difficult words. That should be advice as well. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: I, I’m putting it on the list.

Heidi Sørensen: Yes, do that. 

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Stay positive. Use storytelling. 

Heidi Sørensen: Yeah.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Keep the main thing, the main thing. And no acronyms. Yeah. Yes. 

Heidi Sørensen: Yeah, that’s good.

Gabrielle Beran: Heidi seemed to me to have the calm clarity of someone who knows they’re on the right path. It made me feel, on the one hand, envious. Because I know that there is probably millions of, millions of hours of, of sweat and tears put into what they’ve been able to deliver. But at the same time, they have been able to deliver it.

And that is incredible. And, and you know, you and I both spoke about imagine if I could swim in the Thames, you could swim the Potomac, what would that be like for our lives? For the listener? We are probably 300 meters from the Thames right now, and I would need 300 million pounds to get into it right now.

So, I found that really [00:38:00] inspiring and kind of put, really puts pay to people who say it’s too hard. And, and, and you know, when we talk about Scandinavian countries, people are often very quick to be like, well, look, they’ve got a lot of political stability, which they do. They have economic stability, which they do.

They have a lot of things in their favour. But, but as Heidi said, there are still things that, that almost every city government or every local authority will have at their disposal. And the mechanisms in place, the budget, the strategy, the governance. Actually, any city could do that I would hope?

Kandice Louis-Wilson: Some of the difference that I saw that I haven’t necessarily heard, and not to say that’s not happening in some of the other places, was the influence on the mindset shifts in community members in the organisations. And what they couldn’t shift in mindset, they shifted in operation. Okay, we will procure you to, to follow a suit. And I think it didn’t seem forceful, it didn’t seem like overstepping. It just seemed simple solutions to say like, how do we all meet the same like targeted goal of making our city a better place. Not politicising it, not making it about culture, not making it about [00:39:00] anything other than, Hey, we wanna live here.

We want to be able to do the small things like swimming in rivers. We want to be able to have our kids enjoy the parks in the middle of the city. We want for people to walk down the street and be able to see and enjoy beautiful flowers. And that’s something that everybody, I think, can relate to. People like to enjoy the places that they live.

And I think by simplifying it, it made it so relatable. And to your point, like she’s been doing this for so long, um, and I found like there’s always these new different, you know, innovative things, but I feel like sometimes we’re losing the recipes. 

And it felt like just that simple apple pie recipe from grandma. It’s just a little bit of sugar, a little bit of apples, a little bit of flour, and this is how you make it work. And every single time you do that, the apple pie comes out amazing. 

Last thing I’ll say is I, I really appreciated the storytelling. I, I truly believe that in the art of storytelling, I believe in the power of storytelling, but it was the art of using it for citizens, but also they used it for business. 

Like they were able to take that back, to go to say, okay, this is how it’s impacting the [00:40:00] kindergartners. This is how impacting the construction workers and people were able to buy into that. So I really appreciated that, that aspect of it and how they’re using that to make change in all the different spaces.

Gabrielle Beran: And I think the storytelling has to go along with delivery. That was the other thing that was pretty impressive. They have delivered, they have the stories to tell. 

And the, the final thing I will say was I, I thought her emphasis on building good relationships and that being one of the roles of a climate agency, or I can imagine a sustainability office in a city government, whatever your unit or department is called. 

Those people being relationship holders, relationship builders, being really focused on, on, on people and connection. That seems essential to me and, and I think they did a really good job there. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of Reimagining Government. This is a special series on climate and gender brought to you by the Centre for Public Impact.

If you want to learn more about the work we do at CPI, check out our website at [00:41:00] Centerforpublicimpact.org, and that’s centre C-E-N-T-R-E.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: If you enjoyed this episode and aren’t enjoying the series so far, please consider rating and reviewing on your podcast app. It only takes a few seconds, and it helps us reach more people and keep the show going. It’s also just nice to be nice, so consider your good deed for the day. 

Gabrielle Beran: I’m Gabrielle.

Kandice Louis-Wilson: And I’m Kandice, and we’ll see you next time.